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Pages: 1 pullmoll frood Reged: 12/12/09 Posts: 59 Loc: Germany Send PM Space Race (non-) progress #211400 - 01/16/10 05:20 PM Attachment: spacerace.png 9 KB (0 downloads) Reply Hiya, I just wanted to report (almost) no progress with Space Race in my TTL emulation. It looks like I'm missing something serious with the 9602 monoflop emulation, or perhaps in the rest of the circuit that is supposed to create a "star field". The output just doesn't look right, even if I didn't see a screenshot of the original yet. I captured most of the schematics in an ExpressPCB *.sch file now and it looks like the circuit should be all right so far. As always, you can find all the stuff at: http://pmbits.ath.cx/pong/ [ATTACHED IMAGE] Naoki Reged: 11/10/09 Posts: 1998 Loc: United Kingdom Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: pullmoll] #211401 - 01/16/10 05:26 PM Reply > Hiya, > I just wanted to report (almost) no progress with Space Race in my TTL emulation. It > looks like I'm missing something serious with the 9602 monoflop emulation, or perhaps > in the rest of the circuit that is supposed to create a "star field". > > The output just doesn't look right, even if I didn't see a screenshot of the original > yet. > > I captured most of the schematics in an ExpressPCB *.sch file now and it looks like > the circuit should be all right so far. > > As always, you can find all the stuff at: Looking good. I have to hand it to you for trying to emulate pure electronic componants and make a good picture from it ^_^ > http://pmbits.ath.cx/pong/ ---- On a quest for Digital 573 and Dancing Stage EuroMix 2 By gods I've found it! Antny Lurker Reged: 10/10/03 Posts: 908 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Naoki] #211412 - 01/16/10 06:04 PM Reply Looking good so far. There has been some progress since your other pictures. Thanks for your effort. pullmoll frood Reged: 12/12/09 Posts: 59 Loc: Germany Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Antny] #211416 - 01/16/10 06:15 PM Reply > Looking good so far. There has been some progress since your other pictures. The only progress is that I found why the rockets were missing some pixels (it was due to the 9311 timing). I wish I could understand how the star field part of the circuit is supposed to work, though. It is really complex compared to anything I've seen. italie MAME owes italie many thank yous, hah Reged: 09/20/03 Posts: 15246 Loc: BoomTown Send PM hmmm....<Nt> ~dusting off the ramtek trivia schematics~ [Re: pullmoll] #211422 - 01/16/10 06:46 PM Reply > > Looking good so far. There has been some progress since your other pictures. > > The only progress is that I found why the rockets were missing some pixels (it was > due to the 9311 timing). > I wish I could understand how the star field part of the circuit is supposed to work, > though. It is really complex compared to anything I've seen. Stiletto They're always after me Lucky ROMS! Reged: 03/07/04 Posts: 6472 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: pullmoll] #211456 - 01/16/10 09:57 PM Reply > Hiya, > It looks like I'm missing something serious with the 9602 monoflop emulation http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Databooks-3/Book524-3418.pdf http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-8/DSA-153697.pdf http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-16/DSA-302137.pdf http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-16/DSA-302157.pdf http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-22/DSA-423101.pdf http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-22/DSA-425014.pdf http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-22/DSA-426530.pdf http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-110/DSAP008004.pdf I'll gregf this sucker. (No, I don't expect that those datasheets are helpful. Juergen's likely even seen them before.) > The output just doesn't look right, even if I didn't see a screenshot of the original yet. Screenshots (Old-Computers.com): (Discrete Logistics) Weird thing about second shot from each set: scores are different, everything else is the same! Status right now for the onlookers - - Pong is sort of working? Attract mode mostly works, ball gets to end of playfield, and scores a point. At this point Player 1 score increments, but there's some slight graphics garbage, a stray line written to the score. Attract mode does not appear to repeat. During actual play, the ball bounces around, but when it gets to the end of the playfield, gets stuck at the end and bounces from top to bottom of the screen, apparently infinitely. Also, coining up during play restarts the ball back at the center of the screen, but continuing in its original trajectory (original bug/feature?). Finally, when ball hits the lower edge of the screen, it sometimes reappears at the top of the screen. (original bug/feature?) No sound. Average - 2.85 fps on Intel Pentium M 1.60 GHz, 1.2 GB RAM, 99% CPU usage. - Rebound is very broken. Video appears "okay" (except for scores) until coin-up, when scores corrupt and bottom edge of playfield becomes corrupted. Ball never appears. Controls do not seem to do anything. No sound. Average - 3.32 fps on Intel Pentium M 1.60 GHz, 1.2 GB RAM, 99% CPU usage. - Space Race appears okay before coin-up. Ships appear perfect, starfield, while it may not be accurate as Juergen says, is at least recognizably a scrolling starfield. Scores are slightly corrupt (as appearing in Juergen's screenshot). Compare Space Race screenshots versus Juergen's screenshot. However, after coin-up, controls never respond. Ships appear to stop moving, starfield stops scrolling. No sound. Average - 0.7 fps on Intel Pentium M 1.60 GHz, 1.2 GB RAM, 99% CPU usage. So it's still very early days yet. No worries, Juergen! I need a new home machine desperately, but the new work machine is a Core 2 Quad Q6600 with 4GB of RAM, I'll do some performance measurements there as well. I don't expect miracles. Anyhow, performance be damned, we want to document these games before they all stop working. ------------------------------------------------------- If you want to mess about at home, Juergen is uploading WIP Windows and Linux binaries to his website. You just need the binary plus the *.net files which describe the schematic of the game. Or you can compile yourself from source. Honestly, I doubt he's in the mood for error reports yet. Usage: ttl [gamename].net Fun Fact: Running "ttl" without any netlist file afterwards launches Pong by default! Pong ---- Controls: P1 - Up (Potentiometer) = "q" P1 - Down (Potentiometer) = "a" P2 - Up (Potentiometer) = "p" P2 - Down (Potentiometer) = "l" Coin = "5" Other Games ----------- Controls: Start = "1" P1 - Up (Direction) = Up Arrow P1 - Down (Direction) = Down Arrow P1 - Left (Direction) = Left Arrow P1 - Right (Direction) = Right Arrow P2 - Up (Direction) = "i" P2 - Down (Direction) = "m" P2 - Left (Direction) = "j" P2 - Right (Direction) = "k" The direction controls are perhaps to be used in Space Race. - Stiletto Edited by Stiletto (01/16/10 10:55 PM) shadwolf MAME Fan Reged: 01/04/10 Posts: 23 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Stiletto] #211476 - 01/17/10 12:22 AM Reply Thanks for the pointers to get started Stiletto - that was *very* helpful. A couple of my favorite games use discrete logic so I've long looked for signs of progress in this area. Pullmoll, are you documenting the schematics in a diagram editor (Dia perhaps?), or are you defining them in XML directly? Nevermind - can see one of the screenshots shows ExpressPCB. Your progress is absolutely *great* and I hope your work can be used as a base to document/simulate many more of these games in the future Edited by shadwolf (01/17/10 12:26 AM) R. Belmont Cuckoo for IGAvania Reged: 09/21/03 Posts: 9716 Loc: ECV-197 The Orville Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: pullmoll] #211497 - 01/17/10 03:38 AM Reply > The output just doesn't look right, even if I didn't see a screenshot of the original > yet. Yeah, the real starfield is a lot less dense. I played Space Race at CAX somewhere in the last 2 years - I think '08. Unfortunately I didn't film it since discrete emulation looked hopeless at the time. Antny Lurker Reged: 10/10/03 Posts: 908 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: R. Belmont] #211500 - 01/17/10 04:00 AM Reply Could this type of emulation be incorporated into MAME eventually? Even if it wasn't perfect couldn't it be flagged as not perfect (as other games are) and improved over time? ranger_lennier Reged: 04/07/05 Posts: 1127 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Stiletto] #211507 - 01/17/10 04:43 AM Reply > Finally, when ball hits the lower edge of screen,sometimes > reappears at the top of the screen. (original bug/feature?) FWIW, this happens in DICE as well. Stiletto They're always after me Lucky ROMS! Reged: 03/07/04 Posts: 6472 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: ranger_lennier] #211509 - 01/17/10 04:51 AM Reply > > Finally, when ball hits the lower edge of screen,sometimes > > reappears at the top of the screen. (original bug/feature?) > > FWIW, this happens in DICE as well. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's legit. Are you imagining a BTANB list for discrete games like I am? LMAO - Stiletto Naoki Reged: 11/10/09 Posts: 1998 Loc: United Kingdom Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Antny] #211514 - 01/17/10 05:06 AM Reply > Could this type of emulation be incorporated into MAME eventually? > > Even if it wasn't perfect couldn't it be flagged as not perfect (as other games are) > and improved over time? I thought it was going to be and you downloaded schematic files or circuit diagrams in zips like sytanderd Roms and that.. ---- On a quest for Digital 573 and Dancing Stage EuroMix 2 By gods I've found it! gregf Ramtek's Trivia promoter Reged: 09/21/03 Posts: 8612 Loc: southern CA, US Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Stiletto] #211533 - 01/17/10 06:16 AM Reply ---- I'll gregf this sucker. Status right now for the onlookers - ----- Great review and status-info notes there. pullmoll frood Reged: 12/12/09 Posts: 59 Loc: Germany Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Stiletto] #211558 - 01/17/10 11:37 AM Reply Thanks for your report! It is appreciated. > At this point Player 1 score increments, but there's some slight graphics garbage, a stray line written to the score. This happens with all games and I think I know the reason. The way I build up the display is some kind of sample-and-hold of the current video signal. You could say the pixel value is latched in the bitmap. On a real monitor, however, a very short pulse would not be visible, because it won't pass the filters that are in the video amplifier etc. Now it happens that the logic decoding the on-screen 7-segment areas of the score seems to generate very short yet invalid signals. It's most probably related to the fact that the horizontal and vertical counters are ripple counters which have intermediate values while the 4 flipflops in each are changing. So you wouldn't see a 10ns pulse on a monitor, but you will see it in the emulation, if it is latched for the duration of an entire pixel, i.e. 2 clock pulses. I'm unsure what to do about it. Stiletto They're always after me Lucky ROMS! Reged: 03/07/04 Posts: 6472 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: pullmoll] #211580 - 01/17/10 05:20 PM Reply > Thanks for your report! It is appreciated. You're welcome Juergen! > > At this point Player 1 score increments, but there's some slight graphics garbage, > a stray line written to the score. > > This happens with all games and I think I know the reason. The way I build up the > display is some kind of sample-and-hold of the current video signal. You could say > the pixel value is latched in the bitmap. On a real monitor, however, a very short > pulse would not be visible, because it won't pass the filters that are in the video > amplifier etc. > > Now it happens that the logic decoding the on-screen 7-segment areas of the score > seems to generate very short yet invalid signals. It's most probably related to the > fact that the horizontal and vertical counters are ripple counters which have > intermediate values while the 4 flipflops in each are changing. So you wouldn't see a > 10ns pulse on a monitor, but you will see it in the emulation, if it is latched for > the duration of an entire pixel, i.e. 2 clock pulses. > > I'm unsure what to do about it. Yeah, I kinda noticed it seems spread across all games. What did DICE do about this, did he use some sort of "hack"? Oh, I forgot to mention that Space Race in your screenshot has double-digit score, but the screenshots I found have single-digit scores? And is that wall generated later in the game, or from the start? Sorry to keep nitpicking, sometimes I think it may be helpful - great work so far! - Stiletto Stiletto They're always after me Lucky ROMS! Reged: 03/07/04 Posts: 6472 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: shadwolf] #211583 - 01/17/10 05:29 PM Reply > Thanks for the pointers to get started Stiletto - that was *very* helpful. NP. I assume there will be a readme at some point... > Pullmoll, are you documenting the schematics in a diagram editor (Dia perhaps?), or > are you defining them in XML directly? Nevermind - can see one of the screenshots > shows ExpressPCB. You know, we've discussed whether there are any decent free-as-in-beer "schematics editors" for which the file format is either open or fairly easy to reverse-engineer, so that one could create some sort of "convert-to-netlist" conversion tool. (You know there won't be any decent free-as-in-OSS "schematics editors" that way...) ExpressPCB is free and decent, but the file format is apparently fairly obfuscated. This might be a good side project for someone who is already knowledgeable about these editing tools. Creating a "netlist-to-schematics" conversion tool would also be awesome, but the netlist does not document component placement nor connection shape, so we'd be missing information. FWIW Juergen, you can pay ExpressPCB $60 per schematic to convert to "Gerber" format. I may end up looking into this sort of thing more, but documenting the games comes first. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. You can always create the "accurate" schematics in ExpressPCB and convert them later. - Stiletto Stiletto They're always after me Lucky ROMS! Reged: 03/07/04 Posts: 6472 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Stiletto] #211590 - 01/17/10 06:58 PM Reply New benchmark run on different machine: Intel Core 2 Duo T5450 1.66 GHz, 2GB RAM - near 50% CPU usage on all games (99% of one core) Pong - 3.37 fps Rebound - 3.66 fps Space Race - 0.670 fps in attract, 0.775 fps in "play" (locked up after coin-up as mentioned previously) - Stiletto pullmoll frood Reged: 12/12/09 Posts: 59 Loc: Germany Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Stiletto] #211595 - 01/17/10 09:13 PM Reply > Yeah, I kinda noticed it seems spread across all games. What did DICE do about this, > did he use some sort of "hack"? No, not really. Dice did, however, not use any real values for the gate propagation delays. I'll see what I can do about those "shadows". > Oh, I forgot to mention that Space Race in your screenshot has double-digit score, > but the screenshots I found have single-digit scores? Perhaps I forgot the RBI/BI inputs on the 7448... I will check this. > And is that wall generated > later in the game, or from the start? The wall is a fuel display and it should be there. It's produced by a combination of a 555 monoflop for the vertical start position and a 9602 monoflop for the width (same as the stars). Perhaps I have to adjust the resitor value of the 555 for it to appear. Will check this, too. Cya, Juergen Stiletto They're always after me Lucky ROMS! Reged: 03/07/04 Posts: 6472 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Stiletto] #211615 - 01/18/10 12:56 AM Reply > New benchmark run on different machine: > Intel Core 2 Duo T5450 1.66 GHz, 2GB RAM - near 50% CPU usage on all games (99% of > one core) > Pong - 3.37 fps > Rebound - 3.66 fps > Space Race - 0.670 fps in attract, 0.775 fps in "play" (locked up after coin-up as > mentioned previously) On another machine: All previous and current tests tested with ttl.exe and netlist from Juergen's site, did not compile myself. Intel Core i7 920 2.67 GHz 6.0GB RAM Windows Vista Home Premium SP2 64-bit (Yes, that means I tested the 32-bit binary on the 64-bit OS) Pong - 5.81 fps Rebound - 6.2 fps Space Race - exit with output to stderr.txt (neither .net nor .net.bck, I forgot to keep a working copy for benchmarking and Juergen updated the files!) - Stiletto ranger_lennier Reged: 04/07/05 Posts: 1127 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Stiletto] #211632 - 01/18/10 04:26 AM Reply Wow, that's a demanding program. Does the approach taken here lend itself to using multiple cores? It seems like DICE was faster than that. Is Juergen's approach more accurate, or is there a lot of room for optimization? gregf Ramtek's Trivia promoter Reged: 09/21/03 Posts: 8612 Loc: southern CA, US Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: ranger_lennier] #211633 - 01/18/10 04:41 AM Reply >It seems like DICE was faster than that. I overlooked the details in the posts also. I briefly read the posts between Adam and Juergen from a couple weeks ago. Adam's work with DICE was a bit different. ---- ... or if it was due to inaccuracies with the simulation - I was using unit gate delay, so every single chip had the exact same delay, which was accurate enough for Pong, but probably not accurate enough for the more complex games. What kind of method are you using for the gate delays? I always planned on starting over from scratch with a more accurate... ------- Juergen's work goes all out. ------- > What kind of method are you using for the > gate delays? I have the different delays for the 0->1 and 1->0 transitions from a TTL data book. Most delays are for the SN74xxx types, i.e. the earliest chips, except when there are only 74LSxxx or other newer types. > And what kind of speed are you getting? Pong runs at roughly 4 fps on my Phenom X4 2.3GHz. It of course runs on one CPU only, and I'm thinking about ways to distribute the work load across multiple cores... Juergen -------- shadwolf MAME Fan Reged: 01/04/10 Posts: 23 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Stiletto] #211636 - 01/18/10 05:28 AM Reply > > Pullmoll, are you documenting the schematics in a diagram editor (Dia perhaps?), or > > are you defining them in XML directly? Nevermind - can see one of the screenshots > > shows ExpressPCB. > > You know, we've discussed whether there are any decent free-as-in-beer "schematics > editors" for which the file format is either open or fairly easy to reverse-engineer, > so that one could create some sort of "convert-to-netlist" conversion tool. (You know > there won't be any decent free-as-in-OSS "schematics editors" that way...) ExpressPCB > is free and decent, but the file format is apparently fairly obfuscated. This might > be a good side project for someone who is already knowledgeable about these editing > tools. I would think Kicad would be a great jumping-off point for this - it's GPL and is multiplatform to boot. http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/ Too bad my coding skills suck, as I'd love to be of help. I've long tried to follow movement in discrete logic simulation. I know of at least three attempts at a Stunt Cycle simulator, and was very happy to see DICE on the scene. Unfortunately the only thing I've been able to do in this area was to modify DICE to have more cab-conventional controls (it's not distributed, as they were pretty simple changes and wasn't sure at the time where to post them) I'm no electronics wiz, but I do simple electronic repairs and can follow schematics. I wonder if it would be welcomed in this project for others to pick a game schematic and rebuild it electronically? While that wouldn't help with the logic of the individual components, perhaps it will get some of the more tedious stuff done. Edited by shadwolf (01/18/10 05:29 AM) Stiletto They're always after me Lucky ROMS! Reged: 03/07/04 Posts: 6472 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: gregf] #211641 - 01/18/10 06:27 AM Reply > > It seems like DICE was faster than that. > > I overlooked the details in the posts also. I briefly read the posts between Adam > and Juergen from a couple weeks ago. Agreed, I think you're on the right track (but I don't actually know - I'm not knowledgeable enough to be able to compare DICE's and TTL's sourcecode to see what's different in the implementations, I don't think I am at least... ) I think once the implementation is solid, the optimizing will begin. As gregf said, Juergen's thinking about whether it's possible to split over multiple cores. It would even be humorous to see if a "TTL DRC" would be possible. Or maybe GP-GPU programming lends itself more to discrete simulation. Who knows... - Stiletto Stiletto They're always after me Lucky ROMS! Reged: 03/07/04 Posts: 6472 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: shadwolf] #211644 - 01/18/10 06:45 AM Reply > I would think Kicad would be a great jumping-off point for this - it's GPL and is > multiplatform to boot. > http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/ Nice. I've also seen gEDA as well. http://www.gpleda.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Free_EDA_software Undoubtedly there's one that could meet Juergen's needs, but he seems more inclined to get the implementation done right now. With the free, open-source projects, we may even be able to persuade them to add "netlist" exporting support in Juergen's format of preference, once the emulator's file format is finalized. > Too bad my coding skills suck, as I'd love to be of help. Mine do as well, or at least I have no faith in them, which is why I'm concentrating on organizing and collating information, support - and eventually, creation of a "Discrete Project" (which already exists informally, more or less). It seems there's been no definitive complete list of discrete CPU-less video arcade games since Al Kossow was heavily involved in arcade collecting. Discrete Logistics was a good start but stopped being maintained. So this is something like Discrete Logistics 2.0. Of course, I'm the kind of guy with big talk and big plans, who starts many projects but finishes few. > I'm no electronics wiz, but I do simple electronic repairs and can follow schematics. > I wonder if it would be welcomed in this project for others to pick a game schematic > and rebuild it electronically? While that wouldn't help with the logic of the > individual components, perhaps it will get some of the more tedious stuff done. That's the point I'm hoping to get to, but I don't want to put pressure on Juergen. I'd love to see the bar of "netlist" creation lowered to the point that anyone who can read schematics and understands basic TTL can contribute. Converting print schematics to computerized schematics is one thing, but many games have NO schematics available (or at least, commonly available schematics) and their circuits will need to be traced by hand based off of digital PCB photos/scans or the actual PCBs - tedious work indeed, and something an emulator developer doesn't _need_ to be doing. Needless to say, this will require some cat herding, but I can help manage the workflow. I love that nearly all these games date from before I was born (same year as Space Invaders). I don't understand my own interest. - Stiletto gregf Ramtek's Trivia promoter Reged: 09/21/03 Posts: 8612 Loc: southern CA, US Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Stiletto] #211648 - 01/18/10 11:31 AM Reply >which is why I'm concentrating on organizing and collating information, support - and > eventually, creation of a "Discrete Project" (which already exists informally, more or > less). It seems there's been no definitive complete list of discrete CPU-less video > arcade games since Al Kossow was heavily involved in arcade collecting. I can picture part of the database/spreadsheet data info from old post being a bit messy with one column filled and another being blank. > Discrete Logistics was a good start but stopped being maintained. So this is something >like Discrete Logistics 2.0. Of course, I'm the kind of guy with big talk and big plans, > who starts many projects but finishes few. Time to hand keys of DL maintenance over to someone that can do quicker updates or maybe do a complete overhaul redesign of DL in order to keep up with what's currently going on in the emu scene. I like the fact that things have picked up faster than I expected compared to 2 months ago. I updated some flyer links and other minor fixes on some of the pages using an HTML editor. That's not enough because it really requires someone that can make changes with a web design program rather than using an HTML line editor. >> I'm no electronics wiz, but I do simple electronic repairs and can follow schematics. >> I wonder if it would be welcomed in this project for others to pick a game schematic >> and rebuild it electronically? While that wouldn't help with the logic of the >> individual components, perhaps it will get some of the more tedious stuff done. >That's the point I'm hoping to get to, but I don't want to put pressure on Juergen. I'd > love to see the bar of "netlist" creation lowered to the point that anyone who can read > schematics and understands basic TTL can contribute. Juergen covered a lot of ground with ttl ic support at this time. Midway's TV Basketball has (74297) which isn't supported yet. Everything else is supported. >Converting print schematics to computerized schematics is one thing, but many games have > NO schematics available (or at least, commonly available schematics) and their circuits > will need to be traced by hand based off of digital PCB photos/scans or the actual > PCBs - tedious work indeed, and something an emulator developer doesn't _need_ to be > doing. Needless to say, this will require some cat herding, but I can help manage the > workflow. Serious cat herding there. As usual, Meadows (4-in-1, Bombs Away, Cobra Command, Drop Zone 4, Ckidzo) are just for starters with proms already dumped, but no logic schematics found yet. Same for Bailey's Fun Four. Digital Games' Knockout pcb is accounted for (credits to Stephen), but no schematics. >I love that nearly all these games date from before I was born (same year as Space > Invaders). I don't understand my own interest. Think of it as a new to-do project for you. You found everything else datasheet-wise other than elusive Votrax SC-01 hardware or Model 1 paperwork. Time to get Ramtek Clean Sweep emulated. pullmoll frood Reged: 12/12/09 Posts: 59 Loc: Germany Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: shadwolf] #211653 - 01/18/10 02:25 PM Reply > I wonder if it would be welcomed in this project for others to pick a game schematic > and rebuild it electronically? Of course! You're welcome to capture another schematic and/or a netlist. I've seen that gEDA has a long list of netlist export functions and am quite sure I could add my XML format to that. It'd require to recapture Pong and Space Race from the ExpressPCB schematics, but that shouldn't be all too hard. It's just that when I tried various schematics editors that none seemed to be mature enough to do the job. I'll give gEDA a try now. Antny Lurker Reged: 10/10/03 Posts: 908 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Stiletto] #211664 - 01/18/10 07:11 PM Reply I love that nearly all these games date from before I was born (same year as Space Invaders). I don't understand my own interest. You are just a young Gregf at heart... ranger_lennier Reged: 04/07/05 Posts: 1127 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Stiletto] #211695 - 01/18/10 11:07 PM Reply > > I love that nearly all these games date from before I was born (same year as Space > Invaders). I don't understand my own interest. > Me, I like the history, and am just wondering what I missed! gregf Ramtek's Trivia promoter Reged: 09/21/03 Posts: 8612 Loc: southern CA, US Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: ranger_lennier] #211703 - 01/19/10 12:03 AM Reply >> I love that nearly all these games date from before I was born (same year as Space >> Invaders). I don't understand my own interest. >Me, I like the history, and am just wondering what I missed! imo, the history of late 1960s through 1980 arcade years was seeing how the game technology evolved from one year to another. The EM hardware games in arcades was still pretty strong till about 1976 and then one could take notice how video game technology was replacing many of the mechanical and EM hardware games. Pinball was still very strong in arcades through 1970s imo so that part was not affected when going to various arcade centers. It was that fans of EM games made by Allied Leisure, Chicago Coins, or Midway could expect that era to eventually come to an end by 1977 since video games were a bit more diversified from assorted pong clones, Breakout, Tank, Computer Space, various baseball games. One could observe the progress by counting numer of video games in an arcade versus mechanical/EM type non-video games in the same arcade. imo by 1977, video games outnumbered the amount of EM hardware games in many of the arcades here in SoCal markets. For those that enjoy the challenge of trying to play a game with one credit for hours on end, 1970s was not a good decade because the video game technology was not there to support lengthy game play. The mind set was a single player should not be playing a video game on a single credit no more than 5 minutes at most. As far as the arcade experiences of having to wait in line to play more popular video games, or observing how good some game players were on some games 1970s and 1980s was no different. gregf Ramtek's Trivia promoter Reged: 09/21/03 Posts: 8612 Loc: southern CA, US Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Antny] #211705 - 01/19/10 12:10 AM Reply >>I love that nearly all these games date from before I was born (same year as Space >> Invaders). I don't understand my own interest. >You are just a young Gregf at heart... He should be lucky not to have a "find-any-film-reels for WG" obsession. shadwolf MAME Fan Reged: 01/04/10 Posts: 23 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: pullmoll] #211732 - 01/19/10 06:44 AM Reply > > I wonder if it would be welcomed in this project for others to pick a game > schematic > > and rebuild it electronically? > > Of course! You're welcome to capture another schematic and/or a netlist. I've seen > that gEDA has a long list of netlist export functions and am quite sure I could add > my XML format to that. It'd require to recapture Pong and Space Race from the > ExpressPCB schematics, but that shouldn't be all too hard. > > It's just that when I tried various schematics editors that none seemed to be mature > enough to do the job. I'll give gEDA a try now. Good deal - I'd love to contribute. Is there any group of games you're aiming to support now (such as early Atari), or are you pretty much planning to hit them as they come? Planning to stick to non-rom/prom titles for a while, etc? Just wondering what era I could start with and it be helpful sooner. I have to admit that the games I'm most personally interested in are those near the end of the logic arcade games lifespan, but I'd like to help with the early stuff as well even though I'm not as familiar with it. Stiletto They're always after me Lucky ROMS! Reged: 03/07/04 Posts: 6472 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: shadwolf] #211784 - 01/19/10 03:42 PM Reply > Good deal - I'd love to contribute. Is there any group of games you're aiming to > support now (such as early Atari), or are you pretty much planning to hit them as > they come? Planning to stick to non-rom/prom titles for a while, etc? > > Just wondering what era I could start with and it be helpful sooner. I have to admit > that the games I'm most personally interested in are those near the end of the logic > arcade games lifespan, but I'd like to help with the early stuff as well even though > I'm not as familiar with it. You could take a look at my short list of suggestions at the top of this thread, but I'm not 100% serious about them... http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...part=1&vc=1 Honestly, I'd say work on whatever you want, with the following exceptions if you want you see your work actually emulated in the short term: 1. ROM loading is not supported yet (many games are undumped anyhow) 2. Vector monitors are not yet supported 3. You can see what chips are at least preliminarily supported in Juergen's source tree. And of course, many schematics have been proven to be inaccurate, etc. etc. And of course, you could always work towards the long term. - Stiletto R. Belmont Cuckoo for IGAvania Reged: 09/21/03 Posts: 9716 Loc: ECV-197 The Orville Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Stiletto] #211787 - 01/19/10 04:33 PM Reply > 2. Vector monitors are not yet supported There are non-CPU vector games? italie MAME owes italie many thank yous, hah Reged: 09/20/03 Posts: 15246 Loc: BoomTown Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: R. Belmont] #211789 - 01/19/10 05:00 PM Attachment: vP.JPG 16 KB (1 downloads) Reply > > 2. Vector monitors are not yet supported > > There are non-CPU vector games? Forgetting about VectorPong? [ATTACHED IMAGE - CLICK FOR FULL SIZE] Stiletto They're always after me Lucky ROMS! Reged: 03/07/04 Posts: 6472 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: R. Belmont] #211795 - 01/19/10 06:22 PM Reply > > 2. Vector monitors are not yet supported > > There are non-CPU vector games? I've been thinking extremely long-term pie-in-the-sky. What's the Cinematronics CPU? Isn't it a CPU implemented in TTL? http://www.cityofberwyn.com/schematics/cine/cineCPU.pdf As Juergen might say, "DO NOT WANT" (Mind you, implementing that would be both extremely difficult, slowest driver ever candidate, and probably only worthwhile to validate all of everyone else's hard work.) - Stiletto keshbach1 Reged: 08/26/05 Posts: 1303 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Stiletto] #211798 - 01/19/10 06:27 PM Reply > I've been thinking extremely long-term pie-in-the-sky. What's the Cinematronics CPU? > Isn't it a CPU implemented in TTL? Yes, it's all TTL and I think the board has the various cpu sections silkscreened on it. Kevin Eshbach keshbach1 Reged: 08/26/05 Posts: 1303 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: ranger_lennier] #211799 - 01/19/10 06:37 PM Reply > Me, I like the history, and am just wondering what I missed! Have you tried attending any gameroom shows? Sometimes people bring games you might never have heard of or ever got to play back in the day. For example at last year's Pinball Wizards Convention somebody brought a couple of EM machines for people to play. Kevin Eshbach ranger_lennier Reged: 04/07/05 Posts: 1127 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: keshbach1] #211858 - 01/20/10 06:20 AM Reply > > Me, I like the history, and am just wondering what I missed! > > Have you tried attending any gameroom shows? Sometimes people bring games you might > never have heard of or ever got to play back in the day. For example at last year's > Pinball Wizards Convention somebody brought a couple of EM machines for people to > play. > Yeah, that would be interesting, if there was one nearby. I found a few on Google, but is there any comprehensive list of shows out there? shadwolf MAME Fan Reged: 01/04/10 Posts: 23 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Stiletto] #211860 - 01/20/10 06:22 AM Reply > You could take a look at my short list of suggestions at the top of this thread, but > I'm not 100% serious about them... > > http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...part=1&vc=1 > > Honestly, I'd say work on whatever you want, with the following exceptions if you > want you see your work actually emulated in the short term: > 1. ROM loading is not supported yet (many games are undumped anyhow) > 2. Vector monitors are not yet supported > 3. You can see what chips are at least preliminarily supported in Juergen's source > tree. > > And of course, many schematics have been proven to be inaccurate, etc. etc. > > And of course, you could always work towards the long term. > > - Stiletto The ones I'm most honestly interested in (as I remember playing them vividly growing up) are Stunt Cycle and Monaco GP. I located the roms and manuals for them a while back, but given the fact that the simulation is early, I think it best to go after something that doesn't use roms yet. Perhaps Gotcha or Breakout... I'll look at the source and compare to the parts on a few schematics, and see if I can't find a target that has the components mostly emulated already. R. Belmont Cuckoo for IGAvania Reged: 09/21/03 Posts: 9716 Loc: ECV-197 The Orville Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: Stiletto] #211894 - 01/20/10 06:35 PM Reply > I've been thinking extremely long-term pie-in-the-sky. What's the Cinematronics CPU? > Isn't it a CPU implemented in TTL? Heh. You wanted slow? That would be slow Stiletto They're always after me Lucky ROMS! Reged: 03/07/04 Posts: 6472 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: R. Belmont] #211913 - 01/20/10 10:35 PM Reply > > I've been thinking extremely long-term pie-in-the-sky. What's the Cinematronics > CPU? > > Isn't it a CPU implemented in TTL? > > Heh. You wanted slow? That would be slow Record-setting, baby. - Stiletto keshbach1 Reged: 08/26/05 Posts: 1303 Send PM Re: Space Race (non-) progress [Re: ranger_lennier] #211989 - 01/22/10 12:14 AM Reply > Yeah, that would be interesting, if there was one nearby. I found a few on Google, > but is there any comprehensive list of shows out there? Sadly I don't think so. Gameroom magazine (www.gameroommagazine.com) lists some of the shows but unfortunately the web site does not have this information anymore. Now a days I find out about other shows from the leaflets available at the shows I regularly attend. Kevin Eshbach Stiletto They're always after me Lucky ROMS! Reged: 03/07/04 Posts: 6472 Send PM bump *nt* [Re: keshbach1] #243109 - 01/08/11 08:09 PM Reply > > Yeah, that would be interesting, if there was one nearby. I found a few on Google, > > but is there any comprehensive list of shows out there? > > Sadly I don't think so. Gameroom magazine (www.gameroommagazine.com) lists some of > the shows but unfortunately the web site does not have this information anymore. Now > a days I find out about other shows from the leaflets available at the shows I > regularly attend. > > > Kevin Eshbach still buying time... Stiletto They're always after me Lucky ROMS! Reged: 03/07/04 Posts: 6472 Send PM Re: bump *nt* [Re: Stiletto] #280747 - 03/28/12 05:58 PM Reply > > > Yeah, that would be interesting, if there was one nearby. I found a few on > Google, > > > but is there any comprehensive list of shows out there? > > > > Sadly I don't think so. Gameroom magazine (www.gameroommagazine.com) lists some of > > the shows but unfortunately the web site does not have this information anymore. > Now > > a days I find out about other shows from the leaflets available at the shows I > > regularly attend. > > > > > > Kevin Eshbach > > still buying time... Pages: 1

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