| Foxhack |
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So uh, I need help with Visual Studio 2008 Express...
#151096 - 05/06/08 10:38 PM
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I'd like to try my hand at programming stuff. A few of you might be aware that I like to do console game translations, but constantly relying on help from other folks is, well, annoying. I'd like to see if I can try to make some tools for myself, with little external help.
I learned recently that Microsoft released updated versions of their Visual Studio Express tools, and I figured, what the hell... I might as well give it a try. But I don't know which one to choose. My programming knowledge is next to none, and I learned a bit of C and Basic a long time ago, but all of that is already gone from my head.
I don't want to program a game, or an emulator. At most, I want to program relatively simple data manipulation tools (possibly graphical ones too). I don't have ambitions. All I want is to learn how to do stuff, ya know?
So anyway. Which of the three available languages would be best for a kinda newbie like me? They have VB, C++ and C#. They're all Greek to me, so I dunno which one would be good. Any comments? 
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: So uh, I need help with Visual Studio 2008 Express...
[Re: Foxhack]
#151163 - 05/07/08 05:36 PM
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> So anyway. Which of the three available languages would be best for a kinda newbie
> like me? They have VB, C++ and C#. They're all Greek to me, so I dunno which one
> would be good. Any comments?
I'd suggest C#. There's tons of books on it, it's easy to make GUI apps and tools with it using WinForms, and it's helpful for later if you ever get into "real" C.
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| Foxhack |
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Re: So uh, I need help with Visual Studio 2008 Express...
[Re: R. Belmont]
#151183 - 05/07/08 10:05 PM
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> > So anyway. Which of the three available languages would be best for a kinda newbie
> > like me? They have VB, C++ and C#. They're all Greek to me, so I dunno which one
> > would be good. Any comments?
>
> I'd suggest C#. There's tons of books on it, it's easy to make GUI apps and tools
> with it using WinForms, and it's helpful for later if you ever get into "real" C.
Interesting. You're the very first person I've met that has suggested C# over VB or C++. Most everyone seems to suggest that I should try Visual Basic instead.
Is C# very different from C++?
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Re: So uh, I need help with Visual Studio 2008 Express...
[Re: Foxhack]
#151222 - 05/08/08 03:23 PM
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> > > So anyway. Which of the three available languages would be best for a kinda newbie
> > > like me? They have VB, C++ and C#. They're all Greek to me, so I dunno which one
> > > would be good. Any comments?
> >
> > I'd suggest C#. There's tons of books on it, it's easy to make GUI apps and tools
> > with it using WinForms, and it's helpful for later if you ever get into "real" C.
>
> Interesting. You're the very first person I've met that has suggested C# over VB or
> C++. Most everyone seems to suggest that I should try Visual Basic instead.
>
> Is C# very different from C++?
Stay away from VB and Managed C++. VB syntax is ugly an Managed C++ just plain sucks. C# has a lot in common with Java and Objective-C, so it's as good a starting point as any for learning to develop for a managed runtime. As ArBee says, it's easy to throw together WinForms apps. If you're hardcore, though, you'll write Win32 C/C++ apps.
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: So uh, I need help with Visual Studio 2008 Express...
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#151229 - 05/08/08 05:11 PM
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> > Interesting. You're the very first person I've met that has suggested C# over VB or
> > C++. Most everyone seems to suggest that I should try Visual Basic instead.
5-10 years ago that was good advice. Now it's not. VB.NET isn't signficantly easier than C# and it's not clear how much MS really supports it now that BillG is out (Basic was always his baby).
> If you're hardcore, though, you'll write Win32 C/C++ apps.
Well, sort of. MFC is back from the dead in the new VS2008 "Feature Pack", but they're definitely trying to steer people away from old-fashioned Petzold-style C/C++ (indeed, the latest edition of The Petzold Bookâ„¢ is C# and WinForms).
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Re: So uh, I need help with Visual Studio 2008 Express...
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#151304 - 05/09/08 12:26 PM
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> VB syntax is ugly an Managed C++ just plain sucks.
I agree about C# being better than VB, the major difference is that you can get paid more for C#. I don't like the syntax of VB either, but it might be just what I'm used to.
Managed C++ is actually very useful, because of IJW. Although thats about it, I've only used it to produce a managed dll that can be called from unmanaged code. You can hack a c# dll around to do the same thing, but it's more of a pain.
If you don't know what language you should use then C# is pretty much always the answer. For games it's not so hot, but it's getting there. For consoles you're still better off with C++, but it's generally harder to get into console programming & not something I'd recommend for someone starting out.
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Re: So uh, I need help with Visual Studio 2008 Express...
[Re: ]
#151305 - 05/09/08 01:21 PM
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> Managed C++ is actually very useful, because of IJW. Although thats about it, I've
> only used it to produce a managed dll that can be called from unmanaged code. You can
> hack a c# dll around to do the same thing, but it's more of a pain.
Yeah, and you can also try using it to make a wrapper for an unmanaged class that can be called from managed code. The trouble is, Microsoft completely changed how it worked between 1.1 and 2.0; not just mixed it up a bit - they totally screwed us over. If you want interop, you're better off using COM and/or pinvoke.
But that's all in the past. In my current job I mostly do C++ and Python on Solaris. It's a welcome change from C# and C++ (Win32) on Windows.
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Re: So uh, I need help with Visual Studio 2008 Express...
[Re: R. Belmont]
#151306 - 05/09/08 01:22 PM
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> > If you're hardcore, though, you'll write Win32 C/C++ apps.
>
> Well, sort of. MFC is back from the dead in the new VS2008 "Feature Pack"
MFC/ATL is for weenies! Real software houses (and developers) build their own infrastructure classes 
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| R. Belmont |
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Cuckoo for IGAvania
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Re: So uh, I need help with Visual Studio 2008 Express...
[Re: Vas Crabb]
#151310 - 05/09/08 04:22 PM
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> MFC/ATL is for weenies! Real software houses (and developers) build their own
> infrastructure classes
Given that I'm "paid" for Windows AO primarily in people bitching that they'd rather use Winamp with 75 plugins even though that setup crashes every 3rd song I'm perfectly willing to be a weenie.
(And I won't mention the really unfortunate product placement that showed up on Something Awful recently if nobody else does).
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| Foxhack |
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Furry guy
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Re: So uh, I need help with Visual Studio 2008 Express...
[Re: ]
#151322 - 05/09/08 06:05 PM
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> > VB syntax is ugly an Managed C++ just plain sucks.
>
> I agree about C# being better than VB, the major difference is that you can get paid
> more for C#. I don't like the syntax of VB either, but it might be just what I'm used
> to.
>
> Managed C++ is actually very useful, because of IJW. Although thats about it, I've
> only used it to produce a managed dll that can be called from unmanaged code. You can
> hack a c# dll around to do the same thing, but it's more of a pain.
>
> If you don't know what language you should use then C# is pretty much always the
> answer. For games it's not so hot, but it's getting there. For consoles you're still
> better off with C++, but it's generally harder to get into console programming & not
> something I'd recommend for someone starting out.
I'm not really interested in making games for consoles, all I want to do is make programs that help me with my translations. C# should work fine.
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| AWJ |
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Re: So uh, I need help with Visual Studio 2008 Express...
[Re: Foxhack]
#151605 - 05/13/08 12:16 AM
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> I'd like to try my hand at programming stuff. A few of you might be aware that I like
> to do console game translations, but constantly relying on help from other folks is,
> well, annoying. I'd like to see if I can try to make some tools for myself, with
> little external help.
>
> I learned recently that Microsoft released updated versions of their Visual Studio
> Express tools, and I figured, what the hell... I might as well give it a try. But I
> don't know which one to choose. My programming knowledge is next to none, and I
> learned a bit of C and Basic a long time ago, but all of that is already gone from my
> head.
>
> I don't want to program a game, or an emulator. At most, I want to program relatively
> simple data manipulation tools (possibly graphical ones too). I don't have ambitions.
> All I want is to learn how to do stuff, ya know?
I "do" console translations from time to time myself, so I think I know what your needs are. For writing the kind of "data manipulation tools" used in a translation, a scripting language like Python is far more appropriate than any of the languages you're looking at.
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| Foxhack |
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Furry guy
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Re: So uh, I need help with Visual Studio 2008 Express...
[Re: AWJ]
#151614 - 05/13/08 01:23 AM
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> I "do" console translations from time to time myself, so I think I know what your
> needs are. For writing the kind of "data manipulation tools" used in a translation, a
> scripting language like Python is far more appropriate than any of the languages
> you're looking at.
Isn't Python a bitch and a half to install, though?
I want to make my own tools, but I also want to make sure these tools are usable by other folks. A lot of people already have .NET installed, so this shouldn't pose a problem, but I dunno.
I only used the terms I used because I don't think some people would like to see the word "romhacking" in a MAME board. :P
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